This week Jenna Love interviews Georgie Wolf - Melbourne escort, author of The Art of the Hook Up, and brains behind The Satisfaction Project. Georgie shares the top 3 most common mistakes that clients of sex workers make, prepares us for ‘drop’ post-booking, and warns of the ‘relationship escalator’.
CHAPTERS
1:33 Main Segment: getting the most out of seeing escorts
37:01 Questions: most rewarding moment, favourite ice cream flavour
41:56 Shit People Say: Sex in tents
LINKS
The Art of the Hook Up: https://www.artofthehookup.com/
The Satisfaction Project: https://www.satisfactionproject.com/
Survey for clients: https://43jxdik7npt.typeform.com/to/Mb7Rznpq
Manscaped: https://www.manscaped.com/ use the code [SOMEBODY] for 20% off and free shipping!
Patreon (from $3AUD/month): http://www.patreon.com/somebodyyoupod
Instagram: http://www.instagram.com/somebodyyoupod
Facebook: http://www,facebook.com/somebodyyoupod
Somebody You Love is sponsored by Assembly Four, empowering sex workers through technology: https://assemblyfour.com/
For more info on sex work in Australia, please check out the following organisations:
ACT (SWOP ACT): https://meridianact.org.au/swop/
NSW (SWOP NSW): https://swop.org.au/
NT (SWOP NT): https://www.ntahc.org.au/swopnt
Qld (Respect Inc): https://respectqld.org.au/
SA (SIN): http://www.sin.org.au/sindex.html
Tas (Scarlet Alliance): https://scarletalliance.org.au/links/
Vic (Vixen Collective): https://www.vixencollective.org/vc
WA (SWEAR):http://sexworkerrightswa.org
WA (Magenta): http://magenta.org.au
Support the show: https://www.patreon.com/somebodyyoupod
TRANSCRIPT:
Jenna Love 0:01
Do you miss the free and affordable ads and social networks
Holly Harte 0:04
without all of the anti sex rhetoric? Assembly Four is a team of sex workers and technologists from Melbourne, Australia, aiming to bring back free and fair advertising and social spaces to the sex working community.
Jenna Love 0:15
Stepping away from the clunky design of traditional platforms, their two products trust dot link and sweeter.at. Refreshing and well needed changes in both presentation and mission.
Holly Harte 0:26
And both are free to join and open to all.
Jenna Love 0:29
You can find both of our profiles on trust and I love how it is so clearly designed by sex workers.
Holly Harte 0:35
Yep. And I love how straightforward and easy it is to use and how much they clearly support the sex working community
Jenna Love 0:41
and also how responsive they are when it comes to feedback and customer service.
Holly Harte 0:45
Check out their website assembly four.com for the word not the number for more info
Jenna Love 0:55
Welcome to somebody you love for the sale of two tidies. I'm Jenna love,
Holly Harte 1:03
and I'm Holly Harte.
Jenna Love 1:05
And we're experts in disappointing our parents breaching community guidelines and banging the people who vote against our rights. Hello listeners. Before we get stuck into today's episode, I'd just like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land from which we are recording. As usual, I'm on Darug and Gundungurra land and I've got Georgie calling in from the land of the war injury people of the Kulin nation. Now Holly is currently in the middle of unpacking a house full of boxes. So she's left me on my own this week, except I'm not on my own. I do have Georgie wolf here. Georgie is a writer, educator and escort based in Melbourne, Australia. She wrote the book The Art of the hookup and produced a podcast by the same name, both of which focus on practical strategies for casual sex and online dating. George's most recent Endeavour is the satisfaction project, a site that shares sex positive and shame free advice, teaching communication, consent and safer sex skills that allow clients to make the most of their encounters with hands on sex professionals, while treating them with kindness and respect. She is also the host of the satisfaction project podcast where she interviews a fantastic variety of sex industry professionals, including yours truly. Hey, Georgie. Welcome to the show.
Georgie Wolf 2:30
Hey, thanks for having this chat. Yeah,
Jenna Love 2:32
my absolute pleasure. It's sort of been a little while in the works. We knew we wanted to have you on and then the stars aligned and he you are so that is
Georgie Wolf 2:40
brilliant. I feel like having the stars align is a miracle given the last couple of years so good on you. Doing well.
Jenna Love 2:48
The stars have not Yeah. I was thinking when I was reading out your, your little bio there that you are such a I don't want to use the word entrepreneur because that's just sort of an overused word. But I feel like you've always got something on the go, you know, you're always coming up with with new things and new ways of delivering important messages. I think that's very cool.
Georgie Wolf 3:09
I'm really really bad at sitting still really bad. Yeah. And I'm really bad at just doing one thing at a time. It has to be 10 things. And they all have to be really hard things are not Yeah, yes. Unintended.
Jenna Love 3:23
Alrighty, here at somebody you love. We are big fans of origin stories, we always ask this question. Can you please tell us how you got started in the industry, and sort of how you came to be where you are now.
Georgie Wolf 3:35
I guess I can sort of tell many different versions of this story depending on which bits I would like to emphasise. But look, to be honest, I've always kind of grown up around sex workers. So from since I was 18, or 19, hanging out in the club scene in Sydney, hanging out in the kink scene in Sydney. A lot of the people I was hanging out with were sex workers and kink workers.
Georgie Wolf 3:58
You know, I played with people who are super experienced kink pros. And it was such a such a not a big deal. I guess that I just kind of went okay, you know, this is the thing people do and this is cool. And then when I moved to Melbourne, about 12 years ago, I was having a lot of trouble finding a job and I was living in a 20 person dorm Backpacker hostel. And I was going down to Brunswick Street in Fitzroy to bimbos for $5 Pizza, any local will know that spot. It's not around anymore, but you could basically get like limitless slices of pizza for five bucks or whatever. And it was my lifeline is hostage. So staying in a 20 person dorm $5 Pizza running out of money, like couldn't find a job. It was really depressing. And then I just happened to run into one of my old friends who didn't wait, just go to a brothel shift. And I sort of went Ah, is it is it that simple? And she's like, Yeah, just give it a go. If you don't like it, then don't do it again, which is really good advice in life for many things. Yeah, try everything once, or almost everything. So
Georgie Wolf 5:00
I literally call the nearest place on Google Maps, which just have turned out to be a really nice place? Just just by luck, ask great fame, fame. All right, you got lucky. I did write super supportive went in, they were like, hurray, here's the couch, off you go. And then they introduced me to some of the regular clients and the other people who are working there were really good and helped me out with beginners stuff, and gave me a lot of really useful tips. And it was actually just a really good way to get started. I don't know if I do very well, if I'd gone straight into independent escorting, and everyone's different in how they learn and what previous life experience they have. But I think I really needed that advice. It was a really good advice. It was really nice to have that support. So that worked really well for me. And then one day, I was doing a shift in the brothel and a couple came in saying that they were looking for a worker to visit them at their hotel. And that's not something that the brothel actually did. They didn't do outcalls for their workers, but my friend the receptionists just sort of went Why don't you just take the number and do it on the sly, I promise I won't tell anyone. And so I did. So my first escorting Job was a threesome. And it was amazing. It was so delightful. Also, they were both just so beautiful and so gorgeous. And they were really into vintage lingerie. The lady was really into vintage lingerie had this beautiful classic 50s style look. And she was just lovely. And we had the best threesome ever. After that. I'm like, Whoa, I made like three times as much money. And I had a hot threesome. And it was fucking awesome. Like, as if I'm not gonna keep doing this. Yeah. So then then I was off. That was it.
Jenna Love 6:33
That's so great. I really liked that somebody said to you, but why don't you do a brothel shift and see whether you like it, because I feel like there's this perception that you have sex for money once and you're, you're ruined. You know, it'll change your whole perspective in life, and you'll never be the same. And you know, there's all this OMA around it. And I've got a friend who, you know, recently started, and we've been doing a lot of doubles together to get her started. And after every booking, I just keep sort of saying, How do you feel now? Has your soul gone to the devil? Are you okay? Are you questioning everything? You're going to joke about it? But it's like, we'll see how you go. And she's loving it so great. And if she wasn't, then she doesn't do it again. You
Georgie Wolf 7:13
know, this is this is that idea around six, particularly when it comes to women, that once you give it away, you can't get it back are you better not lose your virginity because you can never take that back. It's like as if I'd want to fucking take it back. And then things like all you'd better not do that sexy thing with that dude. Because they, they might all that or that chick or that person or whatever, because they might think badly of you. Or like in then you can't take it back and you'll be a slug forever. It's like, well, maybe I just want to be a slug forever. Let's just cross that line. But also you can, you know, you can experiment with sex stuff and go, Ah, that was probably a poor choice, or I didn't really like it doesn't mean you've suddenly condemned yourself to being, like, bad. It's really awful. And this idea that if you, you know you do sex work, once you're, you'll just be soiled or something I don't I just don't get it.
Jenna Love 7:59
No, it's a see. Yeah, as you said, yeah. It's connected to to much broader mores and concepts of sex in general. It's not it's not just sex work.
Georgie Wolf 8:08
I know. You put you push the button. I'm ranting. Now it's all just ranting. Yeah, good. Good, good, good. This is the point. Like, can you mention like, obviously, there's there's a lot of gendered stuff around this, right. And I'm sure that there'll be exceptions to this. I'm sure that male presenting sex workers get shamed in a whole load of other ways, too. But that whole kind of like, um, you know, could you mention a bloke getting paid to have sex for money and then telling his mates and then afterwards, they're like, "do you feel dead on the inside now?"
Jenna Love 8:36
Yes,
Georgie Wolf 8:37
Like, I just don't think it would happen, right? It's really weird. And again, like, that's not a blanket statement, there are ways that all sex workers are shamed for doing their jobs. And there are ways that totally cross gender lines, and there are specific shames that fall on specific genders. But I just-that whole thing about having a, you know, being a chick or being female presenting or being AFAB or having a vajayjay. And having people go, "Well, you better not put shit in there, because you might just be permanently broken". Just doesn't make any sense.
Jenna Love 9:07
No, it doesn't. Because you take it out again,
Georgie Wolf 9:11
it doesn't come out.
Jenna Love 9:14
Exactly, absolutely don't believe in shit in there for days. That's how you get TSS
Georgie Wolf 9:19
goes in must come out as a pretty good principle as it applies to genitalia.
Jenna Love 9:24
So tell us why do you think somebody should hire an adult industry professional?
Georgie Wolf 9:30
Okay, so I kind of feel like most you I know, you won't feel this way. I kind of feel like people who don't have experience with the sex industry, which obviously won't be a lot of people listening to your podcast, think that, you know, you see a sex worker to pay them to have sex with you. And then they they go away and that's all it is. It's just about coming or getting off and then that it's just about your genitals. Like it's kind of I didn't realise when I started that sex work is so much more it's more than just saying But even when it is sex, it's not just about intercourse. And even when it's about intercourse, it's not necessarily about coming. Like that's not the thing, often that people are really there for often they're there for connection, or to feel good about themselves, or to have a great conversation or, you know, feel validated, or feel sexy. Like there are so many reasons. And I really wish that people were more attuned to what was possible, because I feel like a lot of people who decide to go see a sex worker for the first time a particular hands on sex worker, right, so an escort or a brothel worker, kind of like, well, I guess I'll just go and get laid, and it'll kind of suck and it'll feel weird and awkward. And it'll never get better than that. Because same sex worker, of course, like that's all you get out of it. And then they're missing out on all the other stuff that they could be getting, and experiencing by sort of reducing it down just to that kind of shitty exchange.
Jenna Love 10:49
Totally. And I know I imagined it's so daunting the first time you visit a sex worker, right, like whenever I have clients that it's their first time. I hope I've not come across as patronising, but I'm always like, fuck yeah, good on you high five, like, because I just think that's probably a really daunting big step. And you have swooped in swapped in swoop tope. What is the word Swope, I don't think it's SWERFs. You've come in, and you've put together a guide for exactly that situation, which is called Getting Started with escorts. Anyone can access it for free by going to satisfaction project.com, which will be linked in the show notes. What I really liked about this is that you cover what happens after the booking, because I think that that's something people often don't think about and don't prepare for. It's all the buildup, it's all getting there. But then afterwards is actually a really is something you need to prepare for as well for a lot of people, maybe not everyone. So could you share with us some of your top tips for for managing your feelings? Yeah, how you feel after booking?
Georgie Wolf 11:53
And this is a really good point, too. Because like, yeah, like focusing on getting offers being the main reason you see a sex worker, nobody thinks about what happens afterwards, like, how do you leave? How do you feel? How do they feel? Have you left them in a good state? Have you treated them? Well? Do you wake up the next day and gone, you know, I'm going to hell now. Like what happens? And look, this is something that I've learned from my time in the kink scene, we have this thing called drop. And basically, the idea is that when you have a really intense experience, whether it's a kinky experience getting, you know, tied up or getting into that kind of stuff, whether it's a really intense sexual experience, or maybe it's just like bungee jumping, or whatever are doing extreme sports, or whatever, it gets your adrenaline up, and gets all those happy chemicals going in your brain, it means that our brains get a bit out of whack. And then sometimes a day or two later, we don't have any heavy lifts until we start to feel depressed or scattered, or down on ourselves. And I actually think this might be the reason why people sometimes say sex is bad for you. And because obviously, we have a lot of cultural stuff around that. But then also, if you have really good sex, and then the next day you wake up and you feel like shit, you might assume that you're feeling guilt and remorse over what you've done. Whereas really, your brain is just missing those happy chemicals. And it takes a while for your brain to build back up into its original state. So this is what we call drop in the kink scene. And it's something we we look out for like if you play with someone you have a really intense, kinky scene, then you say, okay, like, what do we do tomorrow? Like, do you experience drop? What are you gonna need, what kind of aftercare you're going to need, and we prepare for it. Sometimes people put it in their calendars to remind themselves like, Hey, you feeling shit right now? It's not because the world is terrible. It's just because you've got drop. And then after a day or two, it kind of passes. But nobody else seems to reference this stuff. And I'm amazed because it's totally applies to sex, too. And then a lot of clients have been telling me that they feel really depressed afterwards. And wondering why we're, you know, thinking that they might be too attached to the Escort or, you know, super lonely and I'm like, it could be those things, or it could just be drop, and it'll pass and then like her, and that's really cool to know.
Jenna Love 13:57
It is once you name it, I find whenever I'm having a difficult time emotionally, once I know the reason that gets me 50% Better straightaway, because I just go oh, okay, it's cool. The world isn't ending. I've just this is what this is what I'm experiencing. It's
Georgie Wolf 14:10
not that life is shit, that you feel like shit. And that passes.
Jenna Love 14:14
And you've just run out of all the amazingness because you've had such greatness, which is which is lovely and should be celebrated for maybe a good sign. Yeah, we have a term in the theatre world called post show blues. Just PSB and it's exactly the same because yes, such intense experiences you're with this group of people. You are performing it whether the show runs for a few days or a month or whatever. Every night you're getting together you're going on stage. It's such a high incredibly difficult to get to sleep that night adrenaline. Yeah, yes. And your body just it's a physical thing. And then you get post show blues afterwards because you're suddenly not seeing these people that you've you've had all this intensity with and it's all over. And it is really whenever We get new people come into the environment, we we tell them to watch out for it, you know, we give them a heads up that, by the way, next week you are going to crash. And that's cool. But and I think that's yeah, I think you are so spot on for including it particularly in in the sex industry because, frankly, I think we we provide some really fucking amazing experiences. So it's, it's likely to happen. It's disappointing.
Georgie Wolf 15:25
Like, it's such a big hump for clients to get over, especially new people seeing sex workers like, Okay, I'm gonna do this thing, and it's gonna be really scary. And I'm going to do it and psyching yourself up and really doing your best and putting so much into it. And then just crashing afterwards and wondering if what you've done wrong. And the fact is, you haven't done anything wrong. And in fact, it may be a sign that you've done everything, right, because you've focused on the whole thing, and, you know, put all that effort and attention on it and had a really excellent experience. And it means that all those emotions have kind of been, you know, sucked out, it's gonna take a little while to come back to, you know, normal.
Jenna Love 15:59
Yeah, yeah, I like that's a great way of framing it. Much more positive way of looking at it. So Georgie, what would you say are the three biggest mistakes or most common mistakes? You see clients of sex workers making?
Georgie Wolf 16:14
Okay, so I've got three, but two of them are kind of the same mistake, but just taking the different extremes. And it depends, right? Whether you're a new client, or whether you're an experienced client, I see two entirely different mistakes, depending on their level of experience. So if, if someone's a super new client, the mistake I see most often, and I'm sure a lot of workers relate to this is just not understanding that it's a service. So in this can go two ways. Either someone assumes that because they're paying a sex worker, it's like ordering a pizza, they don't actually need to speak to us like people. So you'll get messages. Like, I need you to be at this room in five minutes. And I'm like, hello, what is your name? And then like, you don't need my name. And I'm like, huh, we're not going to get along, mate. And then they're really puzzled, because they thought it was just a matter of, you know, calling up and UberEATS hooker, am I allowed to say who grew on this show? Oh, yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah, great. So it's not like calling an oboe, you do have to introduce yourself and just put a little bit of effort into establishing that professional and personal connection. But then it can go to the other other extreme to where people who are inexperienced with escorts Don't, don't treat it like a service at all. And instead of getting in touch and saying, Hey, I'd like to see you at this time for this long. They're just like, hey, what you're up to? I'm kind of like, is this a sarong number? Or, you know, why did you message me I'm confused, but they're trying to start the conversation the same way they would with their mates, or have a bit of banter the same way they would with someone they matched with on Tinder, because they don't realise that, in fact, it is a service. And you do need to treat your professional like a professional and actually say, hey, you know, this is my name. Here's what I want. Here's what I would like it. Can you do that? Can we have a conversation? So it's finding that kind of balance between, you know, treating a worker like a person, but not treating them like their mate, you've known for 10 years, you know, because that doesn't work. either. You still need to be professional. So I guess it is kind of the same problem from two different
Jenna Love 18:13
two extremes. Yeah, it is. Often it's that familiarity a lot of the time, like, a lot of messages I get, you know, I've got no message history with this person. And I go, Oh, is this someone I've seen the change numbers or something? Because it just seems like they're chatting to a mate. Right? And I'm like, I don't I don't know who you are you there. Hey, how you doing tonight? And I'm like, what? Okay, I know, I'm on the couch. My husband is that? What are you doing? I don't like it's just very strange.
Georgie Wolf 18:41
I guess the biggest thing that I want from a new client is to understand that they understand the nature of the exchange that they understand I'm a human being that they understand that I need certain information from them, and that it is a professional service, but that I also expect to be treated well. And if they can get that across within the first message, then I'm relaxed, because I know that they know they get it, they know how this works. But if they're a bit like too familiar, or if they're sending like sexy, you know, descriptions of what they want to do, or if they're like, you're Val, five minutes, you know, 30 minutes, 50 bucks or whatever, then I know that they don't really understand how this works. So that's a bit of a red flag. Like I do want to be seeing clients who've done enough research that I know they're going to be okay to be around.
Jenna Love 19:23
I wonder if you get this Georgia often get clients who apologise for having done a lot of research. They'll say, Oh, I've read your whole website. I'm sorry, I don't want to be a stalker. And I'm like, that's why I put it out there. And that's the kind of person I am before I do things. I do the research and I, I think because you and I, you know, we both do put a lot of information out there. We probably attract clients who do like that sort of thing. And I love that I'm like, You're my favourite kind of person, because that's the kind of person I am and that's awesome, right? Yeah, I
Georgie Wolf 19:54
think they worry that they're coming across a store curry or something. I have a client who actually keeps a dossier and this is gonna sound a little bit odd. He keeps a dossier on the on the workers he sees where he records their birthdays their favourite drink, you know those little details? And it's not because he's weird or creepy or anything like that it's because he's so conscientious and doesn't trust himself to remember those details. He writes them down. It's very right brain, right brain left brain, it's a very something brain approach that I absolutely understand and vibe with. Like, yeah, you know, keep those records. If you care about someone, sometimes the way that you care is by remembering those things. And if your brain won't do it for you use a spreadsheet. Yeah, I
Jenna Love 20:37
love and a lot of a lot of sex workers do that, you know, a lot of us keep track of little things like that. I'm terrible at it. So don't expect me to remember anything important about your lives. Sorry.
Georgie Wolf 20:47
Sometimes I can't remember what day it is to be honest.
Jenna Love 20:52
And I think sometimes it's maybe about how that information comes out. That could be perceived as creepy. Like if you, you know, if somebody says, Oh, my dad said this, and they go, Oh, yes. Because your father is that and you're like, Whoa, okay. Oh,
Georgie Wolf 21:06
my God. That's something I mentioned years ago, once. That's very, very specific, you know, but but things like things that are relevant, like sort of relevant and things that we put out there and our tree needs favourite foods, gifts, people like to receive what they like to drink, the thing you talked about last time, that was really fun, so that you can have that conversation again, things that are relevant to your time together, not what their father does for a living, or whether their family knows that they do sex work, like that's, that's good starts to get a bit weird. Yeah, yeah, let's talk about experienced clients. And I've met some amazing experienced clients who are just lovely, and have all their shit together. And there are still certain things that creep up, I find and the biggest one, is what I call getting on the relationship escalator. So if you have been seeing a worker for a while, and you found someone you have a really good vibe with, and you get along with them, and then you start to have bookings with them, you see them on the regular, you start to become closer as you do, because you know, when you see someone repeatedly, of course, you're going to get to know them better. And you're both going to start to be more yourselves around each other. It's just part of the process. But then what I do find is a lot of us are trained to think of all relationships, particularly sexual relationships as things that should be on a really fixed, escalating path. So you know, you meet someone that you think is hot. So you try and ask them on a date, you go on a date with them, then you try and get with them, you get with them, then you try and date them. Once you try and date them, then you need to move in with them, then you need to, you know, propose that you need to pop out babies or whatever. I'm the super hetero, obviously, too. But that assumption that if you like someone and if it's working it has to escalate, can really get in the way for escort clients. Because what happens is they're like, Oh, I really like this person. And I feel like my feelings are getting bigger. That means that we should spend more time together, or they should give me more more time, or they should give me more attention. Otherwise, it means that they're not reciprocating my feelings. But of course, an escort is never going to be able to escalate the relationship, the way that a normal romantic relationship does. If you try and do that, it just blows up, it stresses out your worker, they feel like you're demanding things from them. Rather than just enjoying your time together, you really need to find a way to keep those emotions on an even level and not expect things to escalate. So the way that I see a lot of long term professional relationships with escorts blowing up is clients that just not deliberately get super attached, and then start to feel gypped because they escort isn't reciprocating their feelings, and takes it really hard and then becomes maybe a little more demanding of their time and attention or a little more needy, emotionally needy and the whole thing just starts to fall apart. And it's awful, because you had something good. You had something good and you just had to hang on to it just by keeping keeping things on a nice even keel, you know,
Jenna Love 23:45
isn't that the one of the saddest things when we get when we have a great client who just fucks it up for themselves. It's
Georgie Wolf 23:53
awful. And it's not even their fault, often because we don't learn this stuff. Like no one teaches us how to manage our feelings and our relationships consciously. We just expect that they should work somehow magically. But of course they don't. So I really feel for clients where that does happen. Because often it's kind of like it's not something that they know how to handle, you know?
Jenna Love 24:13
Yeah, it's interesting, as you said, it's a very hetero worldview. And it's also a very monogamous worldview. And being someone who's quite open about being poly and open in terms of relationships, I find, you've just got me thinking I've just started thinking now that you're, you're saying this and I love this whole concept. Because I find a lot of the time what people who subscribe to monogamy which I don't see anything wrong with, what they struggle to grasp is, well, if you're dating someone else, what happens when you want to get married to them and then you want to have babies together? And I don't see my relationships that way. I don't I don't see them as as escalating or following a particular path. And you know, they go Oh, what if okay, but if you love someone else, then does that mean where's that relation? It's not going anywhere. I'm just loving that person. And I'm loving this. How
Georgie Wolf 25:02
could you escalate all those relationships at once? That's not gonna work. It's not this. I actually stole the relationship escalator concept from polyamory. So that's it's totally a polyamory thing. Yeah.
Jenna Love 25:13
Oh, yeah, there you go.
Georgie Wolf 25:14
I'm glad I've just discovered it in a really roundabout way. But I'm also I'm solo, Polly. Sorry, solo polyene, which means that I don't believe in escalating my intimate relationships. I'm like, whatever we want to do together, we'll do. But I don't want to move in with anyone, like I'm happy who I am, like, let's just stick to what we enjoy and not feel the need to push things somewhere where there may or may not go. And that's a really good principle for relationships, whether they're romantic or sexual or not. But it's also a really good principle for saying sex workers, you don't push things where they don't want to go, because that never goes well. Right?
Jenna Love 25:48
Yeah. I mean, I feel like we do that with our friends, don't we? We don't expect our friendships to Ness. I mean, some of them may well escalate. But we don't necessarily, you know, become friends with someone and expected to have these milestones get closer and closer. And if we do,
Georgie Wolf 26:02
it's usually a bit of a red flag, like a friend that demands you spend more and more time with them and gets resentful of your other friends. We would say that is a problem, right? So it's weird that we don't see our romantic partners at our clients. We wouldn't see that as being as big a problem.
Jenna Love 26:16
Definitely. Yeah. Ah, you've blown my mind a little bit. I love thinking about new new concept new concepts for me. I know they're not new concepts for the world. But very cool. Thank you, Jojo.
Georgie Wolf 26:26
You're welcome. I love talking about this. Totally. Your buddy clicks and relationship nerd. Yeah, I started lecturing the bloke, my barista in my local cafe, but good relationships the other day, because he made some reference to his girlfriend. And so I'm like, tell me more about that. Have you thought about doing this? And this, and this? And he's like, Oh,
Jenna Love 26:47
I love that. I feel like I'm a bit of a relationship nerd as well. It's something that I just find fascinating and interesting. And there's so many ways of thinking about it. And right, it's great. So I know, like you're doing some little surveys and things you're always researching, always finding out new information. I saw on Twitter the other day, you are trying to find out what what clients worry about when they go to sex workers. Yeah,
Georgie Wolf 27:12
we did the survey, and it's still running. It'll be running to the end of the year, just asking clients all these different questions kind of like customer satisfaction, you know, how happy are you with your experiences with sex workers? And one of the questions was, Do you worry about what your sex worker thinks of you? And a lot of people said yes. And then I was sorry that I hadn't asked a more specific question, because I'm like, What are you worrying about? Folks? I'd love to know.
Jenna Love 27:36
What What are there other kind of common concerns that you hear from from clients? Definitely
Georgie Wolf 27:42
screwing it up. So that's another one that came up in the survey, a lot of people or a majority of people, even though majority of clients who answered said, I feel that I'm very confident as a client, and I feel that I know the etiquette as a, as a client. A lot of them also said, I'm really nervous about doing or saying something wrong and mucking things up and making things awkward. So it's really interesting that, you know, people can be super experienced, and know, know, the rules and know what to do, but still have this kind of like, low level of worry, like, oh, but what if I make a mistake? That would suck? What if it ruins the mood? You know?
Jenna Love 28:16
Yeah, yeah, that is a big one, I let you talk about in your Getting Started Guide that, you know, it's so great to learn all of this and to do your research and prepare. But at the end of the day, we are the professionals, and you know, we are going to guide you through the process. And mistakes are fine. And I think it's really hard. You know, I know that a lot of a lot of the listeners of our podcast, Holly and I both have had many, many clients come to us going. Was that me that you were talking about that time? Did I do this wrong? I think I did that once and constantly reassuring them that if we still are seeing you, then you're good. Yeah. Because the occasional mistake or you know, saying a wrong word, or saying you know, we not we're all human beings and we know, you know, if you accidentally say the P word or or hook or something, you know, we go yep, that's cool. We live in a society where those words are used and that's fine. If somebody starts you know, throwing slurs at us, obviously, that's a different story. But other little little missteps with etiquette, you know, coming out of the shower and using the wrong towel or whatever it is. It's all fine. We don't actually, you know, we don't go off Fuck this. I don't want to have sex with you anymore. It's cool. We're just trying to you know, to help and yeah, I feel surprised me.
Georgie Wolf 29:37
I feel like sex worker Twitter can kind of sometimes be a bit unhelpful in this in this regard. Because of course, we love to complain about things that have gone wrong, because you know, that's what social media is for. But I feel like sometimes clients feel like, do it like saying a workout is this minefield of shit? I'd better not do that on but don't use the wrong towel and I'd better not say hey, in my message and like they're falling away all these little don'ts and they're very Little dues. So I try really hard to give the dues like, do plan then relax, do do your best, but don't beat yourself up too much, rather than just saying remember this, this, this, this and these 10 things because that's it's really hard when you're in a stressful situation. And when you're naked to remember the 20 things, you know, at some point, you have to actually relax and trust your worker and go with the flow. Right?
Jenna Love 30:20
Yeah, and enjoy yourself. Right? That is the whole point. It's like some of my favourite subreddits are, there's like tales from retail Tales from the front desk, Tales from the pizza guy. And they're all industry specific. Workers complaining, right? And then just, you know, talking about idiotic customers and what it's like working in customer service. I see. Yeah. And it's, you know, some of the stories are very funny, and some of them are very baffling. And you go, what the fuck was that customer thinking. And I think that sex worker, Twitter can be quite similar to that. And, you know, I don't have any issue with anyone having a whinge about their job. We just got every job. Absolutely every job, has it shipped parts and hasn't shipped customers. But I guess the issue is that it's so personal. Like, I don't know if that many people care if they're what their pizza guy thinks of them. Or they don't necessarily care what you know, the person taking your order at, at the grocery store, what they necessarily care about, it's like
Georgie Wolf 31:17
workers seeing your naked. Yeah, yeah. And that's hard. It's hard to take criticism from someone that's seen seen you that without your pants on, it's a very personal thing. Yeah, I'm seeing you naked beyond the physical, right, as well, emotionally as well. emotionally vulnerable. Yep.
Jenna Love 31:32
So I think that's where there's a bit of tension there. Because I think sex workers like anyone that has absolutely have a right to complain, but I also understand that our clients are giving a lot of themselves to us as we are to them. And then, you know, as a result, that often leads to our emotions and our responses to things being quite heightened to and I think that needs to be taken into consideration. Because, you know, the job is as intimate for us as it can be as intimate for us as it can be for clients. And
Georgie Wolf 32:00
it's good for clients to keep in mind that if they're worried about being criticised, or judged, or that their bodies aren't good enough, or that they pull weird orgasm faces, like these are things we worry about to consent, right. And if a client says something judgmental, awful to us about our bodies, or whatever, yeah, that's gonna, you know, we are getting intimate with that person. And yeah, it can be really impactful as well. Like, yeah, it's good to keep in mind that goes both ways.
Jenna Love 32:25
Yeah, massively. I mean, those of us who have shot porn, we know what our awful orgasm faces look like. We're very aware.
Georgie Wolf 32:32
Thank you for your service.
Jenna Love 32:36
Yeah, yeah, I find that interesting. They never expect us to be self conscious about things. And we absolutely are, we have to project an image of confidence. Because you know, being self conscious about your body, or the way you look, or the way you do things. It's not the sexiest marketing strategy. So we put out this, you know, yeah, I mean, I get comments all the time, people from all over the world saying, you've given me so much body confidence, and that's fucking amazing. And they say, you know, because I'm not skinny. I'm a curvier girl, and, and they say, Oh, it's so great, how you love your body. I don't fucking love my body, I have a very troubled relationship with my body. And that's not you know, it just is what it is. A lot of us do, right? And people are very, very surprised to hear that because I am naked all over the internet. So it doesn't, it doesn't kind of correlate. But you know, that's a whole psychology session for it is
Georgie Wolf 33:27
interesting that people do assume because you're sexually liberated, or because you're comfortable getting naked in front of people that you've solved all your problems. But that isn't the case. Like, you know, as sex workers, we struggle with the hall phobia, we struggle with body image stuff. And I'm aware that also clients struggle with body image stuff, and with their own sex negativity, like everyone's struggling with this stuff, it's just that, you know, if I'm holding the space for someone, you're not going to see that because my focus is on making the safe space safe for you, and looking after your emotional needs. And that's part of the service that you're paying for. But yeah, you know, I'm a human being to all that stuff is there?
Jenna Love 34:02
Yeah, I think you've really nailed it there that a lot of I find it quite therapeutic for me, because sex work means I've got to put my own thoughts and concerns to an extent to the side, because it's not about me, I've got to hold space for someone else. So that can actually be quite I mean, yeah, I don't I wouldn't recommend sex work as therapy necessarily, but there can be some, some positives that we can get out of it in that sense,
Georgie Wolf 34:29
like any any kind of job that you're into, or any activity or into that gets you into flow state where you're really just concentrating in the moment and doing something you're good at can be really therapeutic because it takes you out of your you know, thought patterns or your misery if you're having a bad day and you just concentrate on something you're good at together. That applies to a lot of stuff, I think just depending on the person. Yeah. Yeah. I love that.
Jenna Love 34:55
Mr. Love has been using manscaped products for a few years now. And he swears by it He's been using the lawn mower 3.0. And also sometimes I steal it from his bathroom and I use it too. I'd say Don't tell him but he's editing this podcast. And yes, despite the name, the product itself is actually gender neutral.
Holly Harte 35:16
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Jenna Love 35:39
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Holly Harte 36:11
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Jenna Love 36:40
get 20% off and free shipping with the code somebody@manscaped.com That's 20% Off with free shipping@manscaped.com and use the code somebody heat up your sex life with manscaped. Alrighty, so whenever we have a guest, we do ask our patrons if they have any questions for the guest. So we have a couple for you today. This is a big one. I hate answering this question. Right. So
Georgie Wolf 37:12
it me Oh, you like it? I like difficult questions. Okay,
Jenna Love 37:17
what has been the most rewarding experience of your career in the adult industry
Georgie Wolf 37:22
the most rewarding out of all, like, I've been doing this for 12 years. So just bear with me for a while I just replay my 12 years of suffering. Oh my god, I've had so many awesome things happen. So many, like, you know, those moments where you're coming home from a job and you're like, did that really just happen? Like fuck these things? You know, I'm so glad I do this. I think my favourite stuff. And it's a generalisation. It's not a specific incident. I just, I love helping people open up their relationships. I love seeing couples for their first threesome. And I've had everything from amazing, orgasmic experiences where they were like, oh my god, I'm so glad we did this. We're doing this many more times in the future. I can't believe we never, you know, tried non monogamy before now, two difficult experiences where someone cried or had to stop. And then we talked about it. And there was a lot of learning there. You know, some of my favourite experiences have been with couples, we're halfway through one at one or both of them starts crying go stuff, I can't take this. And then we stop and we talk about, you know, how they're feeling. And they they realise things that they didn't know before. And it makes their relationship deeper, because they got to talk about some of this stuff that came up. And it's just, it's so cool. Because I'm such a Sex and Relationships nerd. I just love helping people work that stuff out. So I think yeah, having a really good three sermon, I can remember a couple where couples have just gone. Oh my god, we were so nervous. And now we are so into this, and we're gonna just go out there and we're going to share a whole load of people like this is fucking awesome. And you know that they went home and fucked again. Oh, my God. As soon as I left, right, yeah. And then I get, you know, and then I get messages from them for months afterwards saying, hey, so we're seeing this person, would you just give us a reference or, Hey, we're going to a first party or whatever, and they're just off it's great. Yeah, I
Jenna Love 39:09
love that. I love it. It's interesting, the the crying because it's not it's not entirely unusual for us to have clients who have difficult feelings, who have trauma who will, you know, cry or need to stop what's happening. And of course, we are not licenced psychologists and that there's a limit to that, but there is a limit to it. But it's so windy and I was just thinking about it a few experiences I've had with couples where it's been quite similar and they are always so apologetic and I think it's so I'm so grateful that they are able to be vulnerable with me there. They've let especially in a couple's situation they've let me into their relationship. And then and not just in a physical sense emotionally they've they've let me in and it's so the trust that they've put in me, you know, to like I just feel like that is so huge and I I don't want to say I like it when clients cry, but
Georgie Wolf 40:03
I like making my clients cry. Yeah.
Jenna Love 40:07
But it's that real intimacy, isn't it? And I think
Georgie Wolf 40:10
learning Yeah, it's really great we kind of make out that every sexual experience has to be amazing and mind blowing and perfect or it's not on, but actually ones that are difficult in a way that we want them to be are ways that are useful, not people doing shitty things to us like yeah, that they can be really rewarding. Okay, our
Jenna Love 40:29
final question for you is is crucial is very, very important. Georgie What is your favourite ice cream flavour?
Georgie Wolf 40:36
Nobody's ever asked me that before. Thank you. Really? Yes. I feel really good about that. So it is mint choc chip.
Jenna Love 40:46
A classic.
Georgie Wolf 40:48
Now I feel like ice cream Thank you.
Jenna Love 40:51
Me too. And my my body doesn't like ice cream but I my mouth does my mouth likes a lot of things. One of my partner's that his his online dating opening line, actually my mouth interaction. My that's also true. first interaction with him asking me what my favourite ice cream flavour was. And I think it's a really great opener is like it it's better than Hey, we're doing much better, much better. And it's fun. That's light. But you know, so and I like my favourite is I just I'm a sucker for vanilla ice cream with mixing I love mix ins. I like the texture. And I feel like that sums me up sexually and romantically as well. Bit of good segue bit of texture. Vanilla with texture.
Georgie Wolf 41:40
Do you like cold rock? Then? You have cold? Oh, yes. Love it. Yeah, so good.
Jenna Love 41:45
love that stuff. Big fan. Big fan.
Georgie Wolf 41:48
Cool. Good that we've got that out there. important.
Jenna Love 41:51
Important. Alrighty, it's time for Shit People Say. And we I think George's got a story for us. Tell us a story. All right,
Georgie Wolf 42:03
this is random. Okay, so good. I do. I'm in far north Queensland, about eight to 10 years ago for the solar eclipse. I was at this giant festival in far north Queensland for for two weeks. I think I lived in a tent in 45 degree heat. And then we saw the Eclipse and we you know, danced around and stuff as you do. But anyway, course. So each, there were 1000s of people at this festival like 10,000 people. So we were divided into little camps of tents at each camp had a camp supervisor who was someone a bit more experienced with camping because it was real hot, like people dehydrated all over the place. It was a little moon, it was pretty, pretty hard going. That's like those sweat lodges that cults have, right, except it was dry. But that's good. Like, it's just under the trees in as little as possible to swing water during the day trying not to die. So this is I think this is where this came from. So my camp manager, you know, everyone from our little camp is lying under trees in as little as possible, trying not to overheat. And you know, we don't talk to each other at what we did and stuff. And I was pretty new to sex work. So I'm like, Yeah, you know, I do escorting blah, blah. And you know, everyone's like, Oh, interesting, because people do tend to say, Oh, interesting. And you know, they're all a bunch of hippies that are lovely people. So no judgement there. I'm really nice. But then, about a week in hanging out during the day with the camp manager. And he's like, huh, so sex work? And I went, Yeah, and he's like, so I was thinking that maybe we could. And I went dude, in a tent in 45 degree heat in far north Queensland. Like, that's not how I work, mate. Is there a five star hotel nearby? I actually don't just go to it. But I laid it on a bit. I'm like, Do you have a five star hotel and some makeup in hills? And send me an email so I can screen you properly? Because yeah, I don't think your work doesn't work, how you think it works. And he was like, ah, and there's so many people around. Yeah. But also, I think he just assumed that a sex worker was just someone that you could get to have sex with you by handing the money and it was just about getting the sex and you could get it in the back of a car or, you know, or in a tent and no shade to anyone who does by the way, like, wherever we choose to work is fine, but I'm like, dude, like, it's like if a surgeon was in final Queensland partying for the solar eclipse, and you're like, oh, while you're here, you can you can just, like just cut out this little bit of a mole of God going on. And he's like, mate, do you mind? It's pretty funny. So he was super taken aback because he thought he could just wander up and offer me some money and I'd that I would fuck anyone for money under any circumstances. And I was surprised by that, too.
Jenna Love 44:43
Huh? It's that misinformation is I mean, I talk about that all the time that so many people think that a we will do anything. It was sort of a name your price situation, right?
Georgie Wolf 44:54
That whole joke about painting your back fence, like, oh, yeah, there's this thing going around in the To where some bloke some blokes like, well, I don't really want to have to paint my back fence. Can I just get some some hookers and get to pay them to paint the fence? Like the implication being that you can pay a sex worker to do anything for the right amount of money
Jenna Love 45:11
or something? Yeah. Oh, God, I'm not painting incense. I don't like physical labour. No, no. Oh,
Georgie Wolf 45:20
look, everyone has their things. Right.
Jenna Love 45:22
And it's also Yeah, I mean, I feel like this is another mistake potential clients make I think is assuming that we are desperate for lack of a better word that we that we will put up with anything because where the bottom of the rung? Yes. And because we we need the money. And, you know, of course, there are some sex workers who do need the money, just like there are people in all industries who need the money. But there's a real joy in turning down those people that just never expect that you they could possibly be turned down by a, you know, a hookah, right. But it's also it's upsetting.
Georgie Wolf 46:00
That whole saying, like, couldn't get a root in a brothel, there are actually people who can't get a root in a brothel.
Jenna Love 46:05
There's lots of them!
Georgie Wolf 46:06
Right? There's tonnes and it's usually around assuming that you can just wander in, that how you act or behave or how you present or whether you've washed doesn't matter. And that because you're paying the customer is always right. And that's not going to get you super far in the sex industry.
Jenna Love 46:20
Nope, not at all. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Georgie. had a fantastic time when I talk to you. I just think you're just full of good stuff. You got good stuff to talk into right about, about you, mate. We always have awesome chats. It's great. Yeah, yeah. And then get sidetracked and, and then Poor Mr. Love has to cut a whole bunch of stuff out.
Georgie Wolf 46:43
Sorry. At least it's not painting someone's fence.
Jenna Love 46:50
he's nodding he would. Thanks so much. I'll talk to you some other time by it's time to thank our wonderful patrons. The thank yous are just coming from me today, but I promise you Holly is equally as grateful for your support. We have a new very generous somebody and that is Milly mas are even more generous. Somebodies are Paul, Catherine. Fritz, your tits, Liam. Ellen. Celeste Weezy. Margaret, our secret admirer, big M. Andrew Scott Watson, Lesley, Nora Knightley, Miss Billy, sub London, Laughlin, Adam Smith, Andrew and Timmy, and are extremely generous somebodies are Josh wombat, Nick at a more Brino Sienna St. Amanda Valentina, Pete, Andrew and Aaron, thank you so much. We will see you next time. Please look out for us on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, and Patreon. Our name everywhere is somebody you pod, as in podcast. Our Patreon starts at just $3 a month, and you can get all of our episodes ad free and a day early. Plus bonus episodes behind the scenes action that bloopers and more. Thank you for taking the time to listen to the voices of sex workers. And remember, somebody you love might just be a sex worker.
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